Curse

upier · Jun 02, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Balance exists in PvE, there's just a lot more tolerance for imbalanced skills. This largely stems from bad design (buffed mob stats, exploitable AI), but also from PvErs' general indifference when it comes to balance discussions ("don't like it, don't use it").

SY and Ursan are objectively overpowered because they outclass all alternatives for the majority of the game. That is, if you're looking to complete a difficult area as effectively as possible, you'd build around either of these two skills. This makes for a stale game, as you'd essentially gimp yourself by running anything else.

A secondary reason is that they make certain parts of playing the game obsolete. Ursanway doesn't require any utility outside of the AoE KD/weakness - the Monks merely have to push bars up. SY, while often needing a team to assist in pumping it out on recharge, the party-wide effect of the skill means you can ditch more "interesting" modes of defense, like targeted Prot or defensive shutdown, as most damage taken by the party is reduced into easily manageable amounts.

A tertiary reason is that these two skills reward too much for mashing buttons on recharge. However, looking at ANet's track record, I don't think this is a concern of theirs anymore, assuming it ever was.

In an ideal balanced PvE, there should be variety, and build that kill variety should be toned down. The two main candidates are again, Ursan, which dominates PUGs for the most part, and SY, for basically anything else. While the list of overpowered skills doesn't end with Ursan/SY, they're on the top of the list, and any sensible balance update has to start by dealing with these.

Balance is a huge grey area in PvE, but you cannot simply pull the subjective card and dismiss it entirely. Nor is saying ANet is the master of all balance any more convincing. ANet can choose whether or not balance is enforced, that's it. Stale builds remain stale, and nothing ANet says is going to change the fact that there is a very small variety of builds that see play in the majority of players.

Sweet!
Could we start our road to an ideal PvE by balancing the FOES first?
Removing all the Ursans, ERs, CoPs, SYs, ... won't change the fact that Molotov will still hit for 1k damage.
But fixing such moronic concepts as Molotov, Maw, Lich, Shiro, environmental effects, ... on the other hand will remove the raison d'être for the above listed skills.

PvP:
You balance the player.
You balance the game.

PvE:
You balance the player.
And you are still left with an unbalanced game because you only did half the job.

Lordhelmos · Jun 02, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

I protested things like this for a long time before actually thinking them through.

In pve players want to be imbalanced, impossibly strong, blow away hordes of monsters with high level spells... etc. I think that there needs to be a certain degree of power tripping added to the game to satisfy the majority of players.

Another reason for the brokeness of certain PvE skills such as Ursan, Ether Renewal, Cry of Pain, etc; is when you put yourself into the shoes of a casual player, many areas by design, are poorly made when taking into consideration the time table that the average player is on when logged into guild wars.

For example, you take DoA, which is normally a 4-6 hour zone that could easily be botched if a player screws up and ends up wiping the party. It's pretty difficult to get together a party of 8 human players who just happen to have half a day of spare time to tackle this impossibly large and frustrating "elite dungeon."

Yes DoA, the Deep, Urgoz, Tombs, and Slaver's Exile are bad by design. They are huge zones that take forever to complete and cause class segregation and new players to be omitted from parties because lets face it; no player wants to sit around and chance someone screwing up a 4-6 hour dungeon.

Skills like Ursan Blessing and Consets turn whats normally a half a day nightmare into a 1.5 hour walk in the park. Rather than going back and spending hours upon hours upon hours of time to redesign these zones that Anet knows they screwed up on making, they gave us overpowered skills in order to allow casual players a chance to actually finish these zones without sacrificing their social life or holiday time.

There really is no alternative fix for these places, Ursan and Consets was really the easiest measure ANET could have taken into making these badly designed areas more managable.

Thus the obvious reason for the existence of these skills.

Although Ursan is the "One build to rule them all." I'd encourage ANET to overpower more skills from other professions, such as ritualists and assassins from PvE in order to bring them up to par and give them a place in the party.

When you look at the spread of classes, each one has its own way of being horribly broken for the PvE environment:

Ursan makes all classes equally and stupidly overpowered, making half a day dungeons take only an hour.

Assassins got shadowform back, making them single best solo farming class in the game, and guarantees them a party slot for holding half the mobs in UW when dealing with the four horsemen quest.

Paragons were always stupidly over powered, and with incoming, save yourselfs, spear of fury, and theres nothing to fear, they can reduce party damage to nearly nothing.

Ritualists got Ritual Lord back, almost putting them on the party defense level of paragons. Spirit Summoning also allows them to drag their spirits anywhere they want.

Rangers have expertise, which allows them to cross play just about any class in the game.

Warriors, are well, warriors.

You have to be joking if you dont need a monk.

And necros have soul reaping, MMs, SS, and N/Rt Sabway builds that make them nearly unstoppable in PvE.

Dervishes have eternal aura, they are also the best runners in the game aside from SF sins, and scythe damage is borderline retarded.

~~

So you see there's really alot of broken stuff in guildwars to allow everyday players an chance at completing high end stuff. It really can be no other way.

If you remember how bad the QQ was when DoA first came out, how empty it was because people got so frustrated with it that they just didn't even want to look at it... If you want all that QQ back, and these forums to flood with scrubs arguing about how unfair GW is, and why HM is impossible for the average player, go ahead and watch what happens if they revert all this stuff.

Sure PvE is broken stupid, but so was every other successful MMORPG, WoW, and games like diablo II, where a high level sorcesss can throw an ice orb into a room and blow away all of the hellcows that are supposed to be "hard."

Shyft the Pyro · Jun 02, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Sweet!
Could we start our road to an ideal PvE by balancing the FOES first?
Removing all the Ursans, ERs, CoPs, SYs, ... won't change the fact that Molotov will still hit for 1k damage.
But fixing such moronic concepts as Molotov, Maw, Lich, Shiro, environmental effects, ... on the other hand will remove the raison d'être for the above listed skills.

PvP:
You balance the player.
You balance the game.

PvE:
You balance the player.
And you are still left with an unbalanced game because you only did half the job.

What you want is beyond us.
What you want isn't found in game balance; it is found in game design.
What you want is for ANet to spend more time and effort designing the game, instead of cranking up the difficulty.

Didn't we say we wanted PvE enemies with secondary professions?
Didn't we say we wanted PvE mobs to fight as teams?
We got that.

The problem is that we also got the things you mention, which points to ANet trying to satisfy different people with different priorities. Overpowered bosses are fine - at the end of the game. Lich and Shiro are fine - if they're kept in end-game missions. The problem happens when Molotov rolls up to you in the middle of "regular" PvE, and when the whole zone is filled with Shiros and Liches.

In hindsight, it's nothing new. Mursaat and infusion, Shiroken and celestial skills, Tormented and Lightbringer. Making all foes "harder, better, faster, stronger" has been a part of ANet's game plan for a while, possibly because it's an industry standard and because it's much easier to provide "challenge" that way.

Yes, we'd like our games to be better, but gaming is an industry and gamemaking a business. It's not practically possible to spend years designing a game, simply because the financial return on such an investment won't be good enough. Dedication and idealism alone are not sufficient; people still have to eat. It's not enough to make a game we want to play; enough other people have to want to play it as well, or the game won't sell and the company will go under. This is especially true in the age of MMOs, where population and the number of accounts are everything.

Once upon a time, I thought ANet and Guild Wars were different.
Once upon a time, Prophecies was Guild Wars.

zwei2stein · Jun 02, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Sweet!
Could we start our road to an ideal PvE by balancing the FOES first?
Removing all the Ursans, ERs, CoPs, SYs, ... won't change the fact that Molotov will still hit for 1k damage.
But fixing such moronic concepts as Molotov, Maw, Lich, Shiro, environmental effects, ... on the other hand will remove the raison d'être for the above listed skills.

PvP:
You balance the player.
You balance the game.

PvE:
You balance the player.
And you are still left with an unbalanced game because you only did half the job.

Anet was doing this long time ago.

Bright example: http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Consuming_Flames of sorrows furnance fame.

Smart gameplay > this
Stupid gameplay -> wipe

Its like mosnter skill version of Frenzy. Okay, thats a bit overstatement, but still ...

upier · Jun 02, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

What you want is beyond us.
What you want isn't found in game balance; it is found in game design.
What you want is for ANet to spend more time and effort designing the game, instead of cranking up the difficulty.

Didn't we say we wanted PvE enemies with secondary professions?
Didn't we say we wanted PvE mobs to fight as teams?
We got that.

The problem is that we also got the things you mention, which points to ANet trying to satisfy different people with different priorities. Overpowered bosses are fine - at the end of the game. Lich and Shiro are fine - if they're kept in end-game missions. The problem happens when Molotov rolls up to you in the middle of "regular" PvE, and when the whole zone is filled with Shiros and Liches.

In hindsight, it's nothing new. Mursaat and infusion, Shiroken and celestial skills, Tormented and Lightbringer. Making all foes "harder, better, faster, stronger" has been a part of ANet's game plan for a while, possibly because it's an industry standard and because it's much easier to provide "challenge" that way.

Yes, we'd like our games to be better, but gaming is an industry and gamemaking a business. It's not practically possible to spend years designing a game, simply because the financial return on such an investment won't be good enough. Dedication and idealism alone are not sufficient; people still have to eat. It's not enough to make a game we want to play; enough other people have to want to play it as well, or the game won't sell and the company will go under. This is especially true in the age of MMOs, where population and the number of accounts are everything.

Once upon a time, I thought ANet and Guild Wars were different.
Once upon a time, Prophecies was Guild Wars.

Game design lays down the rules.
The rules serve as the ground for balance.

In PvP - the game design dictates that players are level 20, they have 200 attribute points to spend, ...

In PvE - the game design includes - players being knocked down every few seconds, players having constant -10 hp degeneration, skills costing 40% more, heals healing for 25% less, foes that can NOT be reached in melee exist, ...

IF one is looking to balance the game - one needs to take the rules that are present in the game into account.

Ohh and overpowered bosses at the end of a level aren't fine.
Because they aren't balanced.
Because we are screaming here that Ursan/ER/Winds/... should be trashed because they AREN'T balanced!
They can be fun though.
And you want to know something?
Given the popularity of Ursan - I'd say people have fun with it!

People here need to decide.
It's fairly easy.
Do you want a balanced game?
Yes?
No?
And then live with the consequences.

drago34 · Jun 02, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Game design lays down the rules.
The rules serve as the ground for balance.

In PvP - the game design dictates that players are level 20, they have 200 attribute points to spend, ...

In PvE - the game design includes - players being knocked down every few seconds, players having constant -10 hp degeneration, skills costing 40% more, heals healing for 25% less, foes that can NOT be reached in melee exist, ...

IF one is looking to balance the game - one needs to take the rules that are present in the game into account.

Ohh and overpowered bosses at the end of a level aren't fine.
Because they aren't balanced.
Because we are screaming here that Ursan/ER/Winds/... should be trashed because they AREN'T balanced!
They can be fun though.
And you want to know something?
Given the popularity of Ursan - I'd say people have fun with it!

People here need to decide.
It's fairly easy.
Do you want a balanced game?
Yes?
No?
And then live with the consequences.

Great post and great point.

/agree

legacyofkain85 · Jun 02, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

The PvE / PvP split is as bad as hell . If one person [ aka assasin ] can solo one of the hardest dungeons [ aka ragars menagrie ] its to imbalanced .

.

where did u get this information?I belive assassin can´t solo Rragar´s Menagerie

Bryant Again · Jun 02, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Sweet!
Could we start our road to an ideal PvE by balancing the FOES first?
Removing all the Ursans, ERs, CoPs, SYs, ... won't change the fact that Molotov will still hit for 1k damage.

It also doesn't fix the fact that the AI in GW is dumb as hell.

I'm sure that for ANet, PvE's been a tough call. In order to have it be challenging on a balanced level, you would need to appropriately adjust the AI to function to hundreds of thousands of builds to encounter, as well as tailor each group in each area to its own party.

That can be a mess, and probably wouldn't "deliver" too well in the grand scheme of things. There have been "balanced" groups already implemented, noticeably in Nightfall, and I don't recall anyone complaining about how "challenging" they were.

So ANet had to go with plan B, the route traditionally took by most games (not just RPGs in general): Provide "overpowered" monsters. Find way's past the big baddies through non-traditional means. My only problem with this is that there's a certain threshold where it doesn't even matter how "tough" something becomes since it's always going to be stupid.

It goes much deeper as "simply give them balanced and effective builds. Ta da". With so many skills, builds, and profession combinations, it could be a crud-storm of one-trick encounters.

Sab · Jun 02, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Sweet!
Could we start our road to an ideal PvE by balancing the FOES first?
Removing all the Ursans, ERs, CoPs, SYs, ... won't change the fact that Molotov will still hit for 1k damage.
But fixing such moronic concepts as Molotov, Maw, Lich, Shiro, environmental effects, ... on the other hand will remove the raison d'être for the above listed skills.

PvP:
You balance the player.
You balance the game.

PvE:
You balance the player.
And you are still left with an unbalanced game because you only did half the job.

You cannot look at pure numbers and state that the mobs are overpowered. You need to factor in human intelligence, and how this affects balance in PvE. Mobs can be pulled, exploited, and they can be buildwars-ed as their builds never change. If Molotov hits for 1000+ damage, you bring Prot Spirit. If Shiro hits too hard, shut him down. AI will never match human intelligence, so it needs to be compensated by some form of artificial difficulty, like increased stats in HM or monster skills.

MercenaryKnight · Jun 02, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I wonder how they will make it in guildwars 2. Because general casual pvers want imbalanced skill and to be able to go load up xxx build and rock through pve.

More skilled players prefer to not take the easy way out and plan specific counters. Perhaps they will make something similar to diablo 2 hardcore mode.

One mode involves tougher monsters/ less or no imbalanced skills and requires strategy. The other is "easy mode"

Trader of Secrets · Jun 02, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

I see how ether renewal can supply an almost infinite amount of energy under the conditions, but I havent heard of any great broken builds in PvE with ether renewal. What are they?

around · Jun 02, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

I would pay dearly to see an RSpike mob in PvE. Imagine the lolz.

edwinna elbert · Jun 02, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trader of Secrets

I see how ether renewal can supply an almost infinite amount of energy under the conditions, but I havent heard of any great broken builds in PvE with ether renewal. What are they?

I've found that the only really OP builds are the monk ones:

[glyph of swiftness][ether renewal][aura of restoration][vigorous spirit][healing breeze][infuse health][heal party]

This lets you use infuse repeatedly for +200 heals every second or spam heal party forever.

[glyph of swiftness][ether renewal][aura of restoration][reversal of fortune][shield guardian][spirit bond][protective spirit]

This is just super prot...

Div · Jun 02, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Balance is not in the dictionary of "casual" players. All they want is to have an easier time.

Nightmares Hammer · Jun 02, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

In the current PvE - the argument "If you don't like - don't use it." is a completely valid one.

...And in Guild Wars 2...?

DreamWind · Jun 02, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

People here need to decide.
It's fairly easy.
Do you want a balanced game?
Yes?
No?
And then live with the consequences.

And the answer from the majority is a resounding "NO". Anets actions clearly show this. This is the exact reason why me and people like me fear for the future of the franchise. The original direction of Guild Wars was excellent. Now it is terrible. If Anet is going to continue down this road I see no hope for that future.

And for those STILL using the "if you don't like it don't use it" argument, please stop. Ignoring the problem means the problem is still there (which was pointed out earlier).

The Meth · Jun 02, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Didn't someone at Anet a while back say something along the lines of "If we wanted to make really smart enemy AI that could beat player groups we could, but the game wouldn't be fun."

We all know the AI could be better then this, but Anet thinks its more fun to face retarded AI's with 3x damage attacks. And they also seem to think players are better off being retarded with 3x damage attacks.

Productivity · Jun 02, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Sweet!
Could we start our road to an ideal PvE by balancing the FOES first?
Removing all the Ursans, ERs, CoPs, SYs, ... won't change the fact that Molotov will still hit for 1k damage.
But fixing such moronic concepts as Molotov, Maw, Lich, Shiro, environmental effects, ... on the other hand will remove the raison d'être for the above listed skills.

They are balanced by the fact that they are AI controlled. Sure they have skills more powerful than you. WHo cares? They will attack a protted target without switching etc.

Winch · Jun 03, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

It seems, that ANET has kicked the rest of the balance-team they once employed.

Shyft the Pyro · Jun 03, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

And the answer from the majority is a resounding "NO". Anets actions clearly show this. This is the exact reason why me and people like me fear for the future of the franchise. The original direction of Guild Wars was excellent. Now it is terrible. If Anet is going to continue down this road I see no hope for that future.

That, sadly, is where you are mistaken. Ursan's popularity is a clear indication that "continuing down this road" will leave ANet with more "mainstream" MMO gamers getting lured by "no monthly fees," which will assure the survival of the franchise.

Guild Wars, as a franchise, will go on. Guild Wars, as we know it, will cease to exist - assuming it hasn't already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Didn't someone at Anet a while back say something along the lines of "If we wanted to make really smart enemy AI that could beat player groups we could, but the game wouldn't be fun."

We all know the AI could be better then this, but Anet thinks its more fun to face retarded AI's with 3x damage attacks. And they also seem to think players are better off being retarded with 3x damage attacks.

To my knowledge, ANet has never made such an admission; that's just something we as players have gathered from our experiences with the AI. Anyone who remembers what henchmen were like before Factions and can compare those experiences with the heroes we have today will have to concede that ANet is capable of programming good AI "helpers," even if it is reluctant to do so and caves in only under high demand. Conspiracy theorists have long noted that ANet could have improved hench AI, but hold that ANet is reluctant because ANet wants the players to be a superior choice. Otherwise, no one would cooperate in this "cooperative RPG" of ours. To take a more current perspective on the same, consider the "7 heroes" issue, which boils down to the "party of improved henchies" anyway.

"Retarded AI" + 3x damage is infinitely easier to code than "smart AI," which makes the first a clear winner for a cost- and time-constrained company. In today's cost-cutting capitalist world, going with the second choice would be tantamount to "gimping yourself" - good for a challenge, bad for the bottom line. It's like outsourcing: everyone does it, and if you don't do it too, you'll end up with a possibly better but definitely costlier product, and won't be able to keep up with your competitors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

They are balanced by the fact that they are AI controlled. Sure they have skills more powerful than you. WHo cares? They will attack a protted target without switching etc.

Considering you're not arguing against the power of monster skills and environmental effects that will usually affect the whole party, do you actually want to have Protective Spirit up on each party member in regular PvE? Suddenly the Ether Renewal un-nerf is making a lot more sense...

Quote:

Originally Posted by illidan009

I hate those cheap ass spells...like ER. It turns any idiot into a guru >.>

I have no knowledge of these "ass-spells" you speak of, but I assume by "guru" you mean "a poster on these forums," yes?